Wow! My brain is getting a workout! Don't you love that feeling?! Especially when it is a result of grappling with the things of God! Swweeet!!! Alright! Well ... that said ... just warning you that I'm about to spill some thoughts about a controversial issue within our faith. You can agree. You can disagree. But think about what GOD'S WORD says rather than whether or not YOU think it is in or not in God's character. This is deep stuff! The deepest stuff I've ever thought about! ......... But when some of your best friends are Ben and James Nilsen - it is inevitable that this will come up in conversation. :) I love those guys!
A couple weeks ago, I went to Mammoth Cave with the Nilsens and some other fun folks. I rode down with James, Kim, Elise, and Elise's friend, Drew, and we got to talking about Calvinism. Yep ... I know you're afraid! A crazyily controversial issue! .... You just mention Calvinism or something with one of the points in it (... I think James and I like to talk about predestination the most ... ha ha!) to Ben or James ... and you better be ready to get deep! ;) .... I forget how we got talking about it, but I started asking what the 5 points are (because I always forget) ... and after James told me a little about each one, I started asking about limited atonement. James said this is the toughest point of the 5 to grasp. ........ Well, I've been thinking about it a bit since then ... trying to wrap my mind around this crazy concept. I didn't get too far ... but I'm a bit farther than I was, so that's fun! .... I've been trying to e-mail my thoughts to James this week ... but he's an oober busy guy. I'm gonna post my last e-mail to James here .... to get some thoughts out about some of this mind-boggling Calvinist stuff. It should be fun ... and only a little scary. ;) I hope ... if some of you don't believe anything about Calvinism .... you will still be my friend after this post. ;) ..... Here it is!
Alright, James .... I'm still grappling with this. Ha! Ha!
I googled TULIP this morning, and here's what I found about limited atonement. Here are the scriptures this site gave me (the site is www.calvinistcorner.com/tulip ... in case you were wondering). ;) .... Matthew 26:28, John 10:11&15, Matthew 25:32-33, John 17:9, Acts 20:28, Ephesians 5:25-27, and Isaiah 53:12. I was also given 1 John 2:2 on another site, which threw my mind into a tailspin! Sheesh!
The site talked about how Jesus' sacrifice on the Cross (His shed blood) is sufficient for everyone but how it's not efficacious for everyone. Efficacious. Big word, I know. I looked it up ... and it means: "capable of having the desired result or effect; effective as a means, measure, remedy, etc." Some synonyms for it are: effectual, efficient, productive, active, capable, effective, forcible, potent, powerful, prevalent, useful, valid. Yeah ... I gave you the whole list ... don't you love copy and paste? ;) .... Anyway ... I was glad I looked it up. ... Jesus' sacrifice was more than able to take care of everyone's sins, but it was not effective in taking care of everyone's sins. Does that sound right? .... I can't fully wrap my head around this concept ... but I think I am getting there (a little). Going back to unconditional election .... since God chose the people who would come to know Him, it sort of makes sense to me that Christ's sacrifice was not effective for those who were not chosen. 'Cause if Christ's sacrifice was effective for everyone, then everyone would have been chosen ... right? Does that make sense? .... So I think I can grasp that part of it. But then there's the question of ... why did God only choose certain people? ... That goes back to the second point, unconditional election. Ha! Wow! This is crazy! And another thing ... backing up a bit .... the verses this site gave me don't really prove anything about limited atonement. They are pretty vague. In Matthew 26:28 and Isaiah 53:12 --- these verses talk about Christ's blood being shed for "many." Vague. And the sheep and the goats talked about in John 10:11&15 and Matthew 25:32-33 ... how do we know the goats are those who were not chosen? Couldn't they just be people who are not saved? Granted, the whole limited atonement thing says the unsaved are the ones who were not chosen (those whom Christ's sacrifice was not effective for) ... but these verses in and of themselves don't prove that the goats are those whom God did not choose. ....... Wow! Crazy stuff.
I'm not presenting this to you or asking you about it because I am trying to disprove the "L" in TULIP. If point #2 is valid (unconditional election) ... and I believe it is (even though I think it's nuts!) ... then point #3 (limited atonement) makes more sense to me. But I don't think the verses that this website provides help support this point. I think it comes down to if you don't believe unconditional election is valid, then you can't believe limited atonement is valid. Unconditional election is what affects/brings about limited atonement.
Ahh! It still doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me ... but I'm gonna trust that God knows what He's doing. ... I know this is long .... and I know you're busy ... but I'd love to hear some of your thoughts on this if you get some time .... even if your reply is a month down the road. Reply when you can ... if you can. :) I hope your week is going well! Praying for you, friend --- everyday! :D
Bye for now,Mical :)
So what do you all think?? Don't hesitate to leave your thoughts! And let's keep grapplin' with the things of God!!!!
2 comments:
Mical: I'm comfortable being labeled a "Calvinist" when it really comes down to it. When I was your age I was taking on the same issues much like Ben and James. Honestly, I thought I knew it all (and I DON'T think that Ben, James or you come across that way, so don't get me wrong).
I relished in the "L" of T.U.L.I.P. even when people were saying, "Get the 'L' outta here!!!" (heh, heh)
So, let me say a few things that I've learned by living--call it wisdom, if you think that's what it is.
First, "TULIP" is only the attempt of men to organize their thoughts about election. As humans, we LOVE to organize things and that's good. In many cases it helps us to pull our thoughts together and even dare to grasp big ideas--like election. "Systematic Theology" is a great example of man's attempt to organize theology with the purpose of grasping the big picture. Again, let me stress that there's nothing wrong with this. In fact, organizing big ideas is good for our brains and trying to wrap our minds around big theological ideas is good for our souls and draws us closer to God when our motives are sincere (sometimes, even when our motives are NOT sincere).
But understand that God's plans and purposes in election are NOT limited by TULIP or what someone says about election in a book or even from behind the pulpit.
When you sit there for a period of time wondering HOW Limited Atonement could be true, stop for a second and remind yourself that you're dealing with an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, triune, just and compassionate God and creator of the universe.
Secondly, remember that as humans we understand everything with regards to the limitations of time and that's not so with God.
But, by all means, KEEP ON WONDERING. For that matter, keep on asking, keep on writing, keep on formulating ideas, keep on organizing your thoughts, etc. And as my old Pastor used to tell me, "Keep on keeping on!"
I've been pondering these things and I'm NOT your age. BD, and my sons are way ahead of me there.
So, just to be fair, aren't your going to post the Armenian point of view? :-)
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